College Media Network

Pro-gay rights and pro-Proposition 8

Voting for Prop 8 was not about equality, it was about legal precedent — gay marriage undermines sep

Kartik Sreepada

Print this article

Published: Wednesday, November 19, 2008

Updated: Wednesday, November 19, 2008

While I risk being branded a homophobic ignoramus on the wrong side of history, I feel compelled to explain what my feeble mind was thinking when I voted yes on Proposition 8.

I breezed through most of the ballot with my loyalty to the Democratic party rather untested, and when I got to Prop 8, I was ready to vote no and cement the full equality of homosexuals. But something happened. I recalled the succinct words of Vice President-elect Joe Biden during the vice presidential debate.

“Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage... That is basically the decision to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths,” he said. I realized then that the term “gay marriage” implied more than just equality, and I could not support it.

Let me make this clear — I fully support the rights of gays. To me, our cultural acceptance of gays is one of the last obstacles in truly making this country what it falsely claims to be, a land of the free. Yet, as past movements have demonstrated, our government spearheads the effort to conquer this final frontier of inequality.

While the California Supreme Court’s acceptance of gay marriage appeared to grant complete equality to gays, it undemocratically undermined another pillar of our Constitution: the separation of church and state. The decision could have led to a dangerous rift between religious institutions and our government, possibly putting patriots at odds with the religiously faithful.

Currently, many sects of Christianity still object to homosexuality. Forcing ministers of these institutions to act against their faiths would certainly leave a bad taste in the mouths of millions of religious Americans.

Marriage is not a legal concept. It is a central part of every current religion, and in this country, it is up to the religions to redefine their respective understandings of marriage in terms of homosexuality.

No on Prop 8 unfortunately looked at the matter through the proverbial eye, and I could not allow the government to overlook its mistake of what had not been first resolved in society, even though our country has never been able to comprehend the term “separation of church and state.”

Two years ago, Rep. Keith Ellison’s  (D-Minn.) decision to swear his oath on the Koran rather than the Bible brought up controversy. In fact, Rep. Virgil Goode (R-Va.) remarked that Ellison’s actions were a threat to “the values and beliefs traditional to the United States of America.” But those who agreed with Goode failed to see the hypocrisy in the tradition for people in every branch of government to swear oath on a book of religion.

Although our nation has always struggled to live up to the high standards laid out in the Constitution, it has made significant strides over 200 years. But as history has proven, there is a wrong way and there is a right way.

The right way maintains the integrity of the Constitution, something that a no vote on Prop 8 could not do. In time, maybe the Supreme Court will declare the term “marriage” unconstitutional. When that moment comes, it will be a victory not just for equality, but the separation between church and state.

Like the movement to remove the phrase “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, this decision would be highly unpopular, but it would be a step in the right direction.



Kartik Sreepada is a junior majoring in neuroscience.

Comments

10 comments
Dumbfounded
Thu Nov 20 2008 23:16
I understand the need to publish both sides of the Prop 8 issue but this is an inversion of both arguments. It honestly makes no sense. Publishing this sorry excuse for an opinion is an embarrassment to both the writer and the Daily Trojan.
Kris
Thu Nov 20 2008 00:14
Mr Sreepada:

Dignifying the love between two people with marriage does not in any way undermine the separation between church and state. Same-sex marriage does not tell churches they must accept homosexuality. The LGBT community is not asking anyone to modify their religious beliefs. Homophobic priests will not be coerced to marry gay couples. If a church wants to restrict marriage to a union of man and woman, fine. Gay couples will simply find a more enlightened and compassionate church that blesses their union. That is the beauty of religious freedom.

What is a more blatant violation of the separation of church and state is the LDS church pouring millions of dollars into the Yes on 8 campaign. Beyond the money, members of the Mormon faith were using the church as a political forum to coach and train Yes on 8 activists. Any supporter of the wall between church and state should be disturbed by this active participation of a tax-exempt church in state politics.

Like you, I am a firm supporter of religious freedom and equality for all. These are not conflicting values. Unlike you I voted NO on Prop 8 because a ban on same-sex marriage demotes the LGBT community to second-class citizenship. It also restricts religious freedom by telling churches they can only legally sanctify one type of union.

Same-sex marriage simply allows Ellen DeGeneres and Portia de Rossi to publicly proclaim their love for one another and enjoy the many rights and responsibilities that go along with a caring, monogamous relationship. We need more stable, loving relationships in this world, not less. I think you and I can agree on that.

Kris
Thu Nov 20 2008 00:11
Mr Sreepada:

Dignifying the love between two people with marriage does not in any way undermine the separation between church and state. Same-sex marriage does not tell churches they must accept homosexuality. The LGBT community is not asking anyone to modify their religious beliefs. Homophobic priests will not be coerced to marry gay couples. If a church wants to restrict marriage to a union of man and woman, fine. Gay couples will simply find a more enlightened and compassionate church that blesses their union. That is the beauty of religious freedom.

What is a more blatant violation of the separation of church and state is the LDS church pouring millions of dollars into the Yes on 8 campaign. Beyond the money, members of the Mormon faith were using the church as a political forum to coach and train Yes on 8 activists. Any supporter of the wall between church and state should be disturbed by this active participation of a tax-exempt church in state politics.

Like you, I am a firm supporter of religious freedom and equality for all. These are not conflicting values. Unlike you I voted NO on Prop 8 because a ban on same-sex marriage demotes the LGBT community to second-class citizenship. It also restricts religious freedom by telling churches they can only legally sanctify one type of union.

Same-sex marriage simply allows Ellen DeGeneres and Portia de Rossi to publicly proclaim their love for one another and enjoy the many rights and responsibilities that go along with a caring, monogamous relationship. We need more stable, loving relationships in this world, not less. I think you and I can agree on that.

SKC
Wed Nov 19 2008 21:11
There were many flaws in this article, but I want to talk about only a few.

Firstly, the phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution. The direct wording in the First Amendment is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." This clearly refers to the federal government, and originally many of the states had their own state religions (Puritans in Massachusetts, Catholics in Maryland, Quakers in Pennsylvania, etc). The idea that all of government should be kept separate from religious institutions came later, so it is a misunderstanding that Americans have always been supportive of separation of church and state, at least as we now understand it. The original intent was religious freedom, not a government void of religion and religious morality.

Secondly, it is blatantly wrong to say that marriage is not a legal concept. Yes, it is also a religious concept, but people who get married in a church (or other house of worship) still go down to the courthouse to legally declare their marital status. With that comes rights such as health insurance, employment benefits, tax breaks, estate rights, etc. One striking example is the state did not acknowledge the celestial marriages of polygamist mormons (at least when mormons still practiced that). Celestial brides were not recognized by the state, and as such, received none of the legal benefits of marriage. This made life extremely difficult if they needed welfare, child support, a divorce, or wanted inheritance if the husband died (his estate would go to his legal wife). Legality counts.

Lastly, why would declaring the term "marriage" as unconstitutional be a victory? Marriage is one of the most ancient human institutions, across all cultures. Separation of church and state is a very new concept, and I fail to see how or why it trumps marriage, and even if it did, why that would benefit anyone.

Ferris
Wed Nov 19 2008 19:03
From the supreme court decision that precipitated prop 8:

"From the state’s inception, California law has treated the legal institution of
civil marriage as distinct from religious marriage."

"Finally, affording same-sex couples the opportunity to obtain the
designation of marriage will not impinge upon the religious freedom of any
religious organization, official, or any other person; no religion will be required to
change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no
religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his
or her religious beliefs."

This is why you do your research and make your decision before you enter the voting booth, because the facts are freely available to you and to vote in ignorance of them is a dereliction of your civic duty. The entire argument made in this article is invalidated by the fact that it has no factual underpinning. There were only two assertions in the entire piece, first that marriage is not a legal concept and second that a failure to pass prop 8 would result in states dictating to churches who they had to marry. Both were explicitly and unambiguously contradicted within the text of the decision itself. Had the author bothered to read it at any point before voting or writing an article on the subject, perhaps we could have been spared this piece.

Baffled Student
Wed Nov 19 2008 18:32
I'm surprised that as a neuroscience major, Sreepada doesn't understand the concept of separation between church and state - as the saying goes, it's not neuroscience. I had to read this article three times to even understand what the writer was saying, and when I did I wished I hadn't.

If you read Proposition 8, it AMENDS the state constitution to BAN gay marriage. It doesn't take a genius to realize that voting YES involves more inteference with the law than voting no. Voting YES is redefining marriage. Voting NO is letting everyone have the legal right that they previously had, and deserve.

And where on earth did this writer get the idea that marriage is a solely religious issue? Sure, lots of people get married in churches. But are you kidding? Marriage is a legal right ... a fundamental right that every person, gay or straight, deserves to have - to have the state recognize your union with the person you love, and thus confer the rights that married couples are promised under state law.

Proposition 8 IS all about equality v. inequality. If a certain church doesn't want to marry same-sex couples, it doesn't have to. Simlpe as that. Voting YES on Prop 8 makes it so that nobody can marry same-sex couples, even if they want to.

That's interference - Proposition 8 violates the separation b/w church and state. Not gay marriage.

Leanne
Wed Nov 19 2008 16:48
Thank you, Stanley and Karin. Cynthia and Kartik, a church never has to wed any couple, gay or not, that it does not feel should be wed. Thus, as someone from Massachusetts who attends a church (UCC) with several same-sex couples, I feel my church is actually more free to exercise its open and affirming beliefs since it is legal in my state. "A tremendous threat" to separation of church and state, you say. You have to consider which church, which state. Different terms, different meanings? How about same terms, different meanings?

Bottom line, no state is shoving anything at a church that a church can't say "no thanks" to, should that be its belief. Some churches in MA do not wed same-sex couples, and some do. That changes when a ban is imposed by law, affecting what all denominations or non-denominations are allowed to do, regardless of their beliefs. And that, my friends, is the muddling of church and state.

Karin
Wed Nov 19 2008 13:44
Thank you, Stanley Harris, for pointing out the complete irrationality and illogical arguments of Mr. Sreepada. This is about CIVIL marriage and the rights granted to married couples given by the state. NOT churches. Do you seriously think that a same sex couple would want to get married by a preacher/minister/paster/rabbi/etc who are homophobic? Many same sex couples want nothing to do with religion when it comes to marriage. Again, it's about civil marriage. The state ordains people to perform marriages. (You, yourself, can do it online.) The Church has nothing to do with CIVIL marriage. I am actually quite astonished that this article made it into the Daily Trojan because this argument of church and state is completely backward and illogical. Separation of Church and State means that we should keep them separate! Religious views should NOT be made into constitutional amendments or laws. Mr. Sreepada, I suggest you take a class in government before you graduate. Cynthia, it is the religious groups shoving down their beliefs on those that want nothing to do with religion. I don't know where you come up with the idea of militant gay rights movement. It is actually quite peaceful compared to the gay bashing and murders that have happened to the members of the LGBT community. Think before you speak.
Cynthia
Wed Nov 19 2008 12:52
Clearly, allowing "gay marriage" to stand, as it was prior to Prop 8's passage, presented a tremendous threat to the separation of church and state, in that the state was meddling in issues of the church. The state has no right to take a sacred institution and redefine it, any more than the church as a right to (as the rabid anti-8 forces have repeated ad nauseum) shove its beliefs down the state's throat. Different terms, different meanings. No sane person can argue that gay marriage is exactly the same. The more vocal, and more honest proponents of the aggressively militant gay rights movement have repeatedly stated their desire to remake society and force THEIR beliefs on everyone else. Passage of Prop 8 was a step in the right direction of mediating those zealots.
Stanley Harris, MD DFAPA
Wed Nov 19 2008 09:56
Mr. Sreepada has benn duped by the Yes on 8 Campaign to mistakenly equate civil marriage with religious marriage.

Prior to the passage of Prop 8, the State never expected ministers to perform same-gender marriages against their religious convictions, as Mr. Sreepada claims. The California State Supreme Court merely granted equal access to the rights and responsibilities of civil, nonreligious marriage to adult couples, regardless of gender. Adding a religious marriage was optional.

The Unitarian Universalist Church has been religiously marrying same-gender couples for almost 40 years and will continue doing so, as will many other religious faiths, even though Prop 8 has taken away the right to civil, nonreligious marriage.

Mr. Sreepada's article demonstrates how effective dominant religious leaders were at misleading the public and swaying the vote so that government would force their religious beliefs about civil marriage on everyone, agreeing or not.